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We’re closing out our three-part podcast series exploring the Black business landscape by going back to the beginning — the founding of the United States — and examining a not-so-simple challenge: How do we rewire the American Dream for Black people?
To answer that question, we welcome Nat Irvin, Assistant Dean of Thought Leadership and Civic Engagement at the University of Louisville, to Longitudes Radio. Irvin argues that business is uniquely suited to dismantle systematic racism and fuel a more equitable society.
“The American Dream is being reborn. And I don't look at it as a negative at all. It's part of evolution,” Irvin explains. “But there's no guarantees that our democracy is going to work. History shows that democracies generally fade out. And so if ours is going to work, we're going to as a country have to embrace all of its citizens, and they have to be vested into the dream itself.”
One way to do that is through empowering Black entrepreneurs to follow their business dreams, giving them access to financial capital — and most importantly, the opportunity to recover from failure.
“If you look at the history of America … it's all about losing. It is all about failures,” he says. “All about businesses starting and failing. That's how we got America. It was all about people trying ideas, and they fail. But they got another shot.”
Given social unrest and a global pandemic, Irvin argues that it’s up to businesses to rise to the challenge of the moment. Business leaders can no longer sit on the sidelines and wait for societal change — they must articulate their values, bring stakeholders together and ultimately drive tangible action.
In fact, Irvin says a silver lining of the coronavirus pandemic is the chance for a “fundamental reset,” an opportunity for us to reexamine what truly matters and how we’ll live in the world of tomorrow. An accelerant of such transformation, Irvin says, is enabling younger generations to redesign our social contract.
“I think that communities need to focus on the next generation of young minds,” he says. “That's where we've got to change the trajectory of America.”
If you missed it, check out part one in our podcast series on Black business, a conversation with former U.S. Secretary of Transportation Anthony Foxx. You can find part two, a chat with entrepreneur Yelitsa Jean-Charles, here.
[00:00:41] Show Open.
Brian Hughes [00:00:42] Today, we're closing out our three-part series devoted to looking at the state of Black business today. We're lucky to have Janet Stovall back in the host seat. Welcome back, Janet.
Janet Stovall [00:00:50] Hi, Brian. Good to be here.
Brian Hughes [00:00:52] Janet, I mentioned that we're closing things out, but we're going to do so by actually going back to the beginning. And by going back to the beginning, I mean, the founding of the United States. We were founded on a certain set of ideals but, unfortunately, those ideals haven't applied to everyone. The question is why?
Janet Stovall [00:01:10] Well, let's put that in perspective. The United States was founded and became an independent nation in 1776. At that point, we had slavery. Slavery lasted 246 years. So if you think about it, the United States has been a country two years less than people were actually slaves, the people who actually helped to build it. So if you think about it that way, it makes sense that those ideals really didn't have anything to do with one set of people.
Brian Hughes [00:01:38] And Janet, our guest today is going to help us examine that very point. His name is Nat Irvin. He's the Assistant Dean of Thought Leadership and Civic Engagement at the University of Louisville. We're going to look at that history. We're going to look at what's changed and unfortunately, what hasn't. And in particular Nat's going to point out why business is so uniquely suited to drive this change.
Janet Stovall [00:02:01] Well, I certainly agree with that point. And in fact, when I did my TED talk a couple of years ago, one of the points I made, and I still firmly believe, is that business is actually the only entity that can change racism, that can get rid of it, that can dismantle it. Business has got to be where it happens.
Brian Hughes [00:02:20] It's absolutely right. And now, listeners, you have two tasks. Please listen to this episode, and when you're finished, go check out Janet's TED talk.
Brian Hughes [00:02:30] Nat, thanks so much for joining us today. We're really glad to have you here with us. It's interesting, I think America has often been billed as this land of opportunity, right. It boils down to this idea that if you just work hard enough, you can achieve whatever it is you want. I think if we look at the current moment, if it teaches us nothing, if not anything else, is that's not true, especially for people of color. If you had to pinpoint why it is we keep coming up short in that regard. Where would you start?
Nat Irvin [00:03:03] You're asking why is it that America keeps coming up short on this on this promise of America? The American dream. Why does it keep falling short when it comes to Black people in America? When you think about the country itself, the idea of America is a fabulous idea. Our founders created this idea that people from all over the world could come together, and they created this notion that you could have this place on the earth, a country where, as I said, people from all walks of life could come together and achieve their life dreams based on merit. That's the premise of America. But for somehow in the founding of America, there was this one little bitty flaw because they meant it for everybody else, apparently, except for this one group. And the fact that that was the seed of which America was born with this flaw in it as beautiful a dream as it is as powerful as an idea as it is — that when it came to the implementation, the actual being able to manifest this dream of America, a powerful idea, it could not yet manifest that dream to the people who born into obviously we're talking about now the issue of slavery at the beginning of the country. That has been the struggle, and so you look at the history over the, you know, these past 400 years and you'll see that we're struggling with the power of this magnificent idea. But it's not just the idea. It is the implementation of the idea. But if you have at the center of power, the notion that one group is more superior to another. Then you're going to see that manifested in all of the institutions, the social, the political, the economic, the environmental institutions. That is the challenge now. And now here we are in 2020. You can see at the heart of the way that you pose the question is the matter of race.
Janet Stovall [00:05:03] So would you say that we're here because we are living the American Dream? The original one, though. And that's the one that simply just didn't include everyone. And that maybe what we need to think about is redefining that dream.
Nat Irvin [00:05:16] If you look at history and I love the way you've phrased this question, because if you, the history of America, it is you know, it is the perfection of first of all, you create a country out of ideas. This is something that had never been done before. And then you've got to figure out how to make it work. You have the Declaration of Independence. You have the Constitution. Then you have to start building an economy. Well, of course, they made a pact with the devil, which was with slavery, which was unpaid labor. And of course, next thing you know, you built a country around unpaid labor. And now you've got all the ramifications of that. But overall, what America is doing now and I've written about this, we're experiencing the demographic singularity. And what I say, the demographic singularity. I'm speaking of two big ideas here. Singularity generally is described as a term that we ascribed to a technology that is to say when sort of artificial intelligence escapes the bounds of human understanding. But when I use that term demographic singularity in context of America, it is when the mathematics of America moves from majority to minority. And what we're experiencing all around the country now is this shift where majorities of white population is no longer the majority. And so now here we are in 2020, where we know already 50 percent of Americans under the age of 16 are minorities already. You’ll notice in the 2024 elections, the 2028 election is when it almost flips over in terms of the percentage of minorities who will actually be voting. So but when you put this in the context of all the other shifts that are underway, you can see why this notion of the new dream of America is in play. The American Dream is being reborn. And I don't look at it as a negative at all. It's part of evolution. But there's no guarantees. Okay, there's no guarantees that our democracy is going to work. History shows that democracies, democracies generally fade out. And so if ours is going to work, we're going to as a country have to embrace all of its citizens, and they have to be vested into the dream itself.
Brian Hughes [00:07:30] And Nat, I really wanted to drill in, you've done a great job framing the systematic aspect of it. Can you talk a little bit, you've done a lot of research about the role of business in particular and how businesses can play a unique role in actually making this a transformative moment?
Nat Irvin [00:07:49] Well, you know, Brian, when I think about America, you've got to think about capitalism. You really can't imagine America without thinking about what is, what role does capitalism play both good and bad in our nation becoming the nation that it became and is now. And when you think about how we deliver goods and services, it is through the capitalist system. We had an opportunity, like any other nation, moving from the agricultural to the industrial age to choose which system we wanted. And we chose the capitalist system. And it turns out and I'm firmly in the capitalist corner here. It turns out that system provides the greatest resources for the most amount of people. And it's the one where we get the most innovation, it's the one where we create the most freedom, it's the one where we get the most choices. That's the part of our of our political and economic system that allows people to be able to own property, to be able to achieve to experience what we say is the American Dream, to be able to if they want to own a home or to be able to provide food for their families or to provide, in other words, that is the way we have chosen to be able to provide a way for us to live in America. So at the heart of it is with capitalism and business then is a responsibility and that I think I frame that in context of the shareholder versus stakeholder. And I think if you look at America over the last 120 years, we were moving largely to this great balance between stakeholder and shareholder. And I think when you think about the challenges that we're facing within education, the challenges we're facing when it comes to climate, the environment, the opportunity, the challenge that we're facing with the legal justice system, all of those things, all of those areas business should have and I think have an obligation to be involved in it. And I think when you look at the matter of inequality within our countries that has grown over these last 30 and 40 years, particularly when it comes to wealth between some communities and others, that's an issue that's got to be solved by both the private sector and the public sector. And I think if the capitalist system is working properly, which is something that the business community should be obviously concerned about for a number of reasons, then the role that business plays in trying to correct some of the imbalances in the economic outcomes, I think that's self-evident.
Janet Stovall [00:10:29] So if we're talking about the responsibility that business has to greater social issues, what responsibility do business and corporate America have to solving the issue of racial inequity? And do they really have a responsibility?
Nat Irvin [00:10:42] I don't think there's any question about that, Janet. And you can see that now. And you can also see what happens when business does get involved, and you can see what happens when business stays on the sidelines. Right now, because of what has happened and with the recent demonstrations related to the killing of George Floyd, what happened to Breonna Taylor here in Louisville, what has happened around the country with police, businesses are starting to see that you can't be on the sidelines on the matter of race and inequality in the justice system any longer. There are significant costs. When you have a city that is shut down because of demonstrations, then you can see that businesses have to recognize that there's a huge economic cost to that. You can see this from CEOs, you hear from business leaders all across the country now. But it should have been something that should have been paid attention to for the last 25, 30 and 40 years. Plenty of opportunity to have done this. People can demonstrate in a way that they can stop traffic. You can stop commerce. Simple basic commerce. People demonstrating in a highway, keeping commerce from moving or can create such turmoil that you have, for example, in Seattle and in Portland, Oregon, right now, other places around the country that absolutely disrupts the economic vitality of a city. This is much more serious than that. If business leaders don't understand that the future of the country rests with how large segments of the population view the country, view opportunities, have an opportunity to be able to express a livelihood, have an opportunity to be able to build their dreams, then their dreams are at risk, too. People are starting to recognize the interdependence of large systems, that businesses are dependent upon education, whether or not people are healthy or not, whether or not they are able to get adequate healthcare. Businesses are going to be dependent on whether people are smart, intelligent, businesses are going to be dependent upon everything else. It's not an entity in and of itself. And the sort of interdependence that we’re starting to recognize that if your employees come to work and what they're worried about is whether or not the police are going to stop them on their way to work, how are they going to be productive at work? Is that a problem just for the employee, or is it just that the problem for that community? No, that's a problem for everybody. It's a problem for business. And I think that's the part that leadership within the business community, CEOs, et cetera, have to and are now starting to recognize that, wait a minute, we cannot be neutral on these things. And I think businesses are starting to realize this.
Brian Hughes [00:13:42] And I wanted to ask you about entrepreneurs in particular. And there's kind of this double whammy right now, obviously, with the pandemic, small businesses are just getting battered, and they're facing challenges unlike ever before. If you had some advice or guidance for things that we could get to work on right away, there would actually be tangible and help Black entrepreneurs. Where would you start?
Nat Irvin [00:14:05] When you talk to Black entrepreneurs and these are the people who actually have dreams, who who want to pursue aspects of the American Dream for themselves, what they're gonna tell you consistently is they need to have access to capital, access to intellectual capital, access to venture capitalist finance. And I think that's the part where the public sector in this instance where I mean, government and private sectors can have the greatest impact. We need many more venture capital firms, meaning more retirement funds. These big pools of capital to be able to direct some of that toward minority businesses. I think this is, in my opinion, the single biggest opportunity for coming back to recreating the American Dream because if you look over the last 15, 20 years, our innovation, our ability to innovate has actually slowed. The number of businesses that we've created has slowed down. And we're not as innovative as we were. And this is troublesome, you know, for the long term of America. But this is where the opportunity rests. And that's why I think it's so important that we pay attention to the emergence of who the new America is and less attention to who America was. I'm not saying forget who America was, but it's not as important as to who America will be. Let's say, for example, in the healthcare area, there are tremendous opportunities and needs that we're going to need for the country over the next 10, 15 years, not just because of the pandemic. Think about all the challenges. All the opportunities are going to be in the health care with AI, with data gathering, with this new whole world of big data and you put that into the hands of the next generation and opportunities for them to create solutions to some of the challenges we face in healthcare. We can have the blossoming of all kinds of new entrepreneurs. And I think the opportunity for businesses and the public sector and the private sector is to provide resources, capital, investment, in communities where entrepreneurs where people are raising their hands say, hey, can I get a shot? And that's what I think is still the power of the American Dream. People still have dreams. People still want to start their own businesses. But I think if you look in the past and you look now, the consistent thing minority businesses are going to tell you is they don't get a shot. They don't get an opportunity to fail. Well, if you look at the history of America and you look at the history of America, particularly from 1821 to 1900s, it's all about losing. It is all about failures. All about businesses starting and failing. That's how we got America. It was all about people trying ideas and they fail. But they got another shot.
Janet Stovall [00:16:55] In your work and in your teaching, you talk about Drucker's concept of social ecology.
Nat Irvin [00:17:01] Yeah.
Janet Stovall [00:17:01] And you suggest that the advent of technology, A.I. digital enablement has really wrought that theory, Drucker's theory to fruition.
Nat Irvin [00:17:11] Mm hm.
Janet Stovall [00:17:11] But are Black businesses, in your opinion, engaged in that social ecology as fully as they could be? If not, why not? If so, how is it going to help with the future of Black business? Can it help? And is it really going to make a difference?
Nat Irvin [00:17:25] The first answer is it has not yet happened yet. We don't have the scale yet, okay. We don't have enough. We just don't have enough. And where we are represented, is not widely distributed. So if you look at the representation within the high-tech or just the largest businesses, you just, it's not we're not there. And so we're at the same time, we're having this huge transformation of how the economy will work centered around data and the gathering of data and being able to predict a lot of things perhaps we'll talk about in a few minutes. No, you don't see the representation of Black businesses in there. But, that's going to be part of the challenges, which is why I was coming back to the importance of venture capital, trying to identify young people, trying to identify them early. Why we've got to recapitalize the whole notion of capitalism into the next generation of who Americans will be. Otherwise, it's going to look a lot like it was, it's narrower or narrower without much representation. And because this future is very uncertain, we don't know where all this is going to go. But I do think that when you look at the representation and the notion of this sort of larger getting back to your point about larger ecosystem, we're in it. But whether or not we're leading it, whether we just sort of on the periphery of that, that that is where we are now. But that's the work that needs to be done.
Brian Hughes [00:18:52] You've spoke a lot about the importance of pointing to the future. And I know a ton of your work relates to futures thinking. But I wanted to hone in on this term that you've used a lot called Thrivals.
Nat Irvin [00:19:04] Yeah.
Brian Hughes [00:19:05] So for our audience and the uninitiated, first of all, what is that? And then how does that play into this broader conversation we're having right now?
Nat Irvin [00:19:13] Several years ago, meaning almost in the 70s and certainly around the early 80s, one of the fundamental questions that I would always ask randomly of young Black people would be questions centered around the future. Which is actually what led me to become a futurist a few years later. And that is I would ask them, what would they want to be in the future? And if you ask questions like that randomly over time you will start to pick up patterns. Early on, young Black people would say they'd want to play sports, right. They they'd want to be a basketball player or football player or certainly something along those lines in entertainment business. Over time, I started noticing once in a while you'd find a young person who'd say they would want to own the football team, or they would want to own the apartment complex, or they would want to own some enterprise. And I started paying attention to when that would happen, what kinds of young people would say those kinds of things? And so I started a collection in my head of wondering which is later what led to me writing a piece called, The Arrival of the Thrivals, whether or not there would be a shift in the black community toward the future. Well, what I discovered in the 90s is there indeed had been and that there was this development of an identity. And I'm not going to go into the long thing, but there was an identity emerging within the Black community that was clearly focused on the future. It saw itself globally, in context, not just being in and of America, but sort of a global identity. Number three, often young people will speak more than one language. That is, they will speak English. They will learn possibly Japanese, possibly Mandarin, some other languages, Italian, whatever. And they were sort of breaking the molds of what we had traditionally thought Black people belonged in these sort of narrow constructs. And so eventually I was able to interview and working with a big marketing firm, being able to identify this emerging generation of young Black people who saw themselves in a very different way than we had seen traditionally within the Black community. And I call them Thrivals and what that represented was a shift within the Black community from survival to what I call a Thrival. And that is a very competitive group of young people who wanted to start a business, who maybe wanted to start a business. But certainly the way that they saw themselves were agents of change who saw themselves as being able to lead into the future, who were not going to be restricted by the categories of race. This was a very aggressive, very entrepreneurial-driven group. And so that's the basis on which I wrote The Arrival of the Thrivals. When I wrote the piece, which would a bit in 19, 2004, I predicted that the first Black president would be Shaniqua Nakata Herrera Hiawatha Washington Jones. And of course, turned out to be and I thought that would happen in 2020. Of course, it turned out to be Barack Hussein Obama. And he was a perfect example of the manifestation of that idea. And even I the person who kind of came up with the idea of this notion of this this kind of an idea that had no idea that it would happen that quick. Turns out, apparently Barack Obama had read The Arrival of the Thrivals before he ran for Senate.
Brian Hughes [00:23:04] Well, that's pretty cool. Earlier, you alluded to the coronavirus pandemic and perhaps its unique ability to give us what some might call a reset moment. What is it about the nature of the pandemic that leads you to believe that that might be the case?
Nat Irvin [00:23:22] So historically, if you look at pandemics during the biblical times, Roman eras, the 13th century, 14th century in Europe, the 1918 epidemic and epidemics have been with us throughout human history. What you find is that structural change is what happened in the economy. The greatest, we got a Renaissance in part because of pandemic. One of the reasons why we Christianity grew was a result of a pandemic of an epidemic in the third century. So when I think about now look at what has happened as a result of this pandemic. We now the airline industry is at, is threatened. Complete travel industry is threatened. The tourism industry is threatened. Our higher education system, the way we have taught in higher education, public schools, the healthcare system is being threatened. Every aspect of our living, being, everything now is up for grabs. And right now we're scrambling, and we don't really know. It's really important to understand. We don't really know how this is going to happen. Now, what we suspect is going to happen is that things that were already underway are going to accelerate. For example, people already working at home. So maybe now that will be the case. Okay, maybe that will be the case, and we will have more work done at home. But the fundamentals, what we have thought as being the essential people in a society who we thought was the least important now may turn out to be the most important. We may have thought that the connection between ourselves and people who are in prison was not our issue. Now it turns out that if anybody gets the virus, it could potentially disrupt every other system. The point I'm getting at is what epidemics do, and what a pandemic does, is it causes a fundamental reset. In the past, what we've got is stronger institutions. In fact, the whole idea that we now have public health in general is as a result of epidemics. And the great thing about if you can use that term about this pandemic is it happens to come at a time when we have great social unrest as well. And it is causing people to pay attention to matters of race, which we would never have paid attention to before. To the extent that we've slowed everything down and you see now the connection between parts of our society that we thought were not connected. Now it turns out that we are interdependent. So I think that it has an opportunity for a fundamental reset across a lot of areas and a lot of opportunities. Now, let me let me dive into this a little bit. Here's a way that we're responding to, let's say, how the pandemic is resetting our schools or whether we're gonna be in person or whether they're going to be at home. The younger population being impacted by the pandemic is going to impact them differently. You can see that manifesting in this behavior, but you see that we have a lot of forces converging all at once. And I think this comes back to the earlier question that Janet asked, which was about this American Dream. It is in play and there are going to be a lot of opportunities, Janet, because of the pandemic. And I think one of the great things that happens as a result of the pandemic comes back to the recognition of our interdependence. You can't say that what happens with the prisoners at Alcatraz is not your issue. You can't say that now. You can't say that what happens in the public schools is not your issue. If people can't go back to school, how do you run a business? Okay, and here's the other thing, that the way that we have thought about measuring risk, we tend to think about numerator and denominator. One in a thousand. One in 10,000. One in a million. That's the way that businesses whether we generally think about risk. Well, you can't use that analysis when you think about kids going back to school because who was to say that one in a thousand or one in a million is your child or your grandchild? We don't use those same measurements to talk about how we were thinking about risk in the future, because now we're applying it to children. We've already changed the way we measure uncertainty in that way. So there, again, is this sort of convergence of this big thing that has happened where we start to recognize you're not just a Black person, you're not just a white person. You're not just Latino. We’re all homo sapiens. But now here's the thing. The pandemic also exposes all of the inequalities that exist in your social systems. And that is historically why you look and study epidemics because it tells you everything that you've done for the youth. It shows you all of your preferences. And so you see that in the way that the pandemic is adversely affecting Black people right now or people of color or people who work in certain industries.
Brian Hughes [00:28:38] Nat, I think one of the major through lines of this conversation that I'm hearing is just the interconnectedness of everything and the fact that there's literally a domino effect for every single decision you make and how it ultimately affects people. With that in mind, I am curious, how do you imagine the role of community, I'll say, community in air quotes, first of all, how we define it, identify as part of it, and then how we utilize community in one another to actually solve problems?
Nat Irvin [00:29:09] God, I love that question so much, Brian. I tell you this, I have been thinking about it in a very specific and narrow turn. Now, this comes back to an earlier question that was asked about specific programs to benefit the next generation. I'll put it that way. I created something. I attended my first TED conference at Oxford University, TED Global, in 2005. And when I came away from that, my thought was these are the kinds of opportunities young Black people need, Thrivals need. And then, of course, I attended the other TED conferences as well. So what I've done is, and I created my own version of that. I created something called Thrivals, which was an idea and opportunity for a daylong exploration for the next generation of young people to be able to explore deeply, for example, artificial intelligence, to be able to have an opportunity to play Jeopardy against Watson or to be able to go and understand how robotics was going to change the world. Things like that. So last July and actually before then, I'd been focusing on the future of healthcare, $3.1 trillion-part of our national economy, GDP. And so when you look at that, an 18 percent of GDP, you start to think about, well, what will be the opportunities for the next generation of young Black people in that economy? But then I started thinking about how would you introduce the healthcare economy to the next generation? That's when I start focusing in on playing a game called Pandemics. I created here at the University of Louisville, with some really smart people, a pandemic tournament, which was an idea of having young people from our community, to play the game Pandemic as a way of introducing them to the language of the healthcare economy. It turns out, and we had the first healthcare Pandemic tournament March 7th of this year, my idea is to have 20,000 young people to play the game of Pandemic. I think that communities need to focus on the next generation of young minds. And in my in my opinion, that should be the 16 year olds, the 15 year olds, the 17 year olds. That's where we've got to change the trajectory of America. And I'm for spending all of our energy in creating the next generation of young entrepreneurs, the next generation of data scientists, for example. I think every community has an opportunity and an obligation to be able to bring artificial intelligence into the world of the next generation of young people. All young people should be data literate. All young people should understand statistics. All young people should study some aspect of business. I think that's where the magic happens. And so I'm encouraging businesses, large businesses and colleges, universities as well, to reach back, get the 15 and 16 year olds, the ones, young people who are just waiting for opportunities. Give them the opportunities. Give them a you know a way of understanding the future that they otherwise wouldn't get. That's what I'm working on, narrowly focusing on the next generation of young people. That's what I'm after. And I think more institutions and that means businesses. For example, I'm working with the idea of how do we create another 100,000 data scientists in the city of Louisville for next year? How do you do that? There's got to be a lot of young people who with just wave in their hands, say, hey, can you teach me something about probability? Can you teach me something about uncertainty? Can you teach me how to understand predictive analytics? Can you imagine how much better our community is gonna be in the future if facing what we are now facing with a pandemic, and what's going to come out of that, the importance of predictive analytics? You can see that we have got to get a much smarter group of Americans going forward. That's only going to come from investing in the young people who are here right now. And that's where I think all of our energy should be directed toward that next generation of who are going to be American Dreamers. I'm hoping they're going to be entrepreneurs. I think they will be. So that's where my energy is.
Brian Hughes [00:33:35] All right. Well, Nat, speaking for Janet, both of us have two, I have girls, she has young women, but I think we both appreciate what you're saying and passing the torch, so to speak. So thank you so much for your time. Most of all, I think this has been an outstanding conversation.
Nat Irvin [00:33:52] Guys, thank you. Thank you for inviting me. It was my pleasure.
Janet Stovall [00:33:56] Thank you. We appreciate it.
Brian Hughes [00:33:59] Janet, we're so glad you've been able to join us these past three weeks.
Janet Stovall [00:34:03] It's been great. Thank you for having me.
Brian Hughes [00:34:05] And we'll invite you back soon, I promise.
Janet Stovall [00:34:06] I promise to hold you to that.
Brian Hughes [00:34:08] Yeah. And listeners. You really do need to check out Janet's TED Talk if you haven't heard it, you'll learn a whole lot more about the role of business, in particular, in driving this equity and change we've been talking about for the past three weeks. And if you like what you heard today, make sure to leave us a review on iTunes, Spotify or Stitcher, or you can always find us directly on UPS.com.
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